That sucks that you weren't able to get in. Did you stick around and hang out outside? What was the crowd like?

But you want me to buy a GM/Ford/Chrysler car made in Mexico, Brazil or China????

Go rip off another classic 70's car and make it into something cheap.

Frankly, I don't understand what either one of you are saying. Its time for some truth, not fiction. First of all, it was under the Clinton administration that we started to see all this mass movement of jobs to Mexico and China. NAFTA remember that? Wasn't it Clinton that opened the doors to China, Hmmmmm? So what you should say is "Made in Detroit, Manufactured by Child Labor in Asia, Thanks to Bill Clinton". Now let’s talk about the Autos. What Obama did is push the union pension and benefits package off GMs books and onto our backs. Nothing more, nothing less. If you understood the issue you would understand that in suggesting that GM should go Bankrupt, Romney would have allowed GM to renegotiate those contracts, which are Lavish, by anyone's standards, and thus become more profitable. The only reason GM is profitable right now is simply because all the pension and benefit costs have been shifted to the taxpayers.

Balanced Budgets since WW2,

Republicans ( 0 )

Democrats ( 5 )

Increased government size and spending annually,

Reagan 6.8% , Bush 5.4% Bush jr 7.7% , total = 137.6%

Clinton 3.5%. and Obama 1.4% total = 39.2%

Debt to GDP increases by president,

Reagan & Bush 30% to 65%, Bush jr 55% to 84% total = 64%

Clinton 65% to 55% Obama 84% to 100% total = 6%

Deficit increases,

Bush 2001, $237 billion surplus to 2009 $1.3 trillion dollar deficit = $1.537 increase

Obama 2009 , $1.3 trillion deficit, to 2013 $1 trillion deficit = $300 billion decrease

Republicans are clearly fiscal Buffoons and are ruining our nation.

Beth what a Fantastic Post!!!!!!!!

Beth, you hit the nail on the head. Bravo.

Beth,,, seriously,,,, " as opposed to blaming somebody else"......

Are your ears jammed with cotton balls,,,, are your eyes covered in duct tape??? How on earth can you sit here with a straight face and say that???

Day in and day out,, on the radio,, in print and on TV all we hear from Romney/Ryan is BLAME OBAMA FOR THIS,, BLAME OBAMA FOR THAT,, BLAME OBAMA FOR EVERYTHING WRONG IN THE WORLD. Romney's ENTIRE campaign is to blame Obama without providing FACTUAL information about how to solve our nations most pressing problems.

If you want to have a conversation about FACTS,, I'm game. But if you want to kid yourself that somehow republicans are above democrats when it comes to the blame game,,, you might be fooling yourself,, but you're not fooling me. BOTH parties blame each other for everything wrong with the world today. BOTH PARTIES ARE GUILTY ,,, not just one or the other.

I applaud your spirit and belief in your candidate,,, but he's no saint and the devil is most certainly in the details. When I see more FACTS from Romney, I might be more inclined to support him. Until then, I'm sitting on the fence, very interested and very intently watching the process unfold.

Balanced Budgets since WW2,

Republicans ( 0 )

Democrats ( 5 )

Increased government size and spending annually,

Reagan 6.8% , Bush 5.4% Bush jr 7.7% , total = 137.6%

Clinton 3.5%. and Obama 1.4% total = 39.2%

Debt to GDP increases by president,

Reagan & Bush 30% to 65%, Bush jr 55% to 84% total = 64%

Clinton 65% to 55% Obama 84% to 100% total = 6%

Deficit increases,

Bush 2001, $237 billion surplus to 2009 $1.3 trillion dollar deficit = $1.537 increase

Obama 2009 , $1.3 trillion deficit, to 2013 $1 trillion deficit = $300 billion decrease

Republicans are clearly fiscal Buffoons and are ruining our nation.

Because Erin, they plan on being successful and end this Socialistic agenda of this current president who is really Barrack Heussin Obama Chavez. Gas is $3.70 a gallon here. $4.65 in California. How do you not get that gas costs pass down to everything you buy, When Bush let office gas was $ 1.88. Let's blame him for that. I do not believe that ANYBODY who can not accept responsibiltiy for what they have done has the backbone to be President. Remember he has no experience. All he has ever done is been a Community Leader. He is a total failure and WILL go down as the WORST President in history. And you will vote for him again. SHAMEFUL!

Prince - you seem to be rather upset today. As such, you are making lots of assumptions - like who I vote for - and make several ideologically based accusations backed neither by history nor data.

RE: ah yes, a favorite political football: gas prices - both sides use this one. Bottom line: they average about equal for O and W terms. I was paying $4.25/gal under W for awhile too. And remember, the main reason gas prices tanked at end of W's term was because of the financial crisis. So you're at least partly right with "When Bush let office gas was $ 1.88. Let's blame him for that." Yes, lets.

There are huge global forces which are, and have proven to be in the past, quite out of the control of an American president - Repub or Dem. Here's a good middle of the road analysis:
"Trick question: Who had higher gas prices, Obama or Bush?"
http://www.mercurynews.com/presidentelect/ci_21545019/trick-question-who-had-higher-gas-prices-obama

Romney and Ryan plan on an "end this Socialistic agenda ". So, they plan on getting rid of Social Security, Medicare, Veterans benefits? If so, I'd like to hear that from them directly. Prince, reality check, you've been living in a country with social programs all your life. I do think we really need reforms, true, but not an end to programs.

I hope you have a better day and can look at the issues more clear-eyed.
(and sorry for typos and reposts)

I couldn't be happier today Erin. I don't recall addressing your comment. But I must ask you "ARE YOU KIDDING ME?" Do you really live in such a state of fear of losing your benefits? Currently NO ONE is denied medical access or treatment at ANY MICHIGAN hospital. They key word is currently. Many doctors under Obamacare are NO LONGER ACCEPTING ANY NEW Medicare/Medicade patients. Rumour has it Beaumont Hospitals are up for sale in the PRIVATE MARKET, so we shall see the fallout. Your gas site, I shall check , but really you seem smart enough to realize a spike in gas price is one thing a constant accepted price for all of us in the REAL BUSINESS world is one that just gets passed down to you. This is where we differ I actually care about our poorer people. None of us can afford this President's policies but my college students can not even afford the bus. Obama's policies on free education are terrible and he has produced no jobs for college graduates. NONE. He has set up the youth for disappointment. In another 4 years NO ONE will remember Bush then who will the Dem's blame?

Prince - yes, I was responding to your comment, mainly RE: gas, I didn't mention Obamacare.

Anyway, I do recommend you read the gas article. And I'm careful to choose middle of the road sources, and/or original data or documentation to read and judge.

I'm having a hard time following your logic on this and some other issues, so I'll sign off and wish you a good day.

You nailed it Beth! Hopefully, the people are tired of this Anti-American message. This is a sliipery slope this President is persuing. When everyone in America has a job paying minimum wage, will that be Obama's success story and his dream of redistribution of wealth and a strong middle class? Is that why students are going to college? Unlike Martin Luther King, Obama HAS NO DREAM for America.

Delusional? Hardly,, tired of listening to people endlessly repeat pre-programmed talking points spoon fed to them by the party they follow? Yes! And please,, I'm speaking to BOTH parties.

Nothing I could say or do would sway you from your views. Your comments alone prove you are closed minded, unwilling to listen or compromise about anything. You use childish name calling, telling half a story instead of the ENTIRE story. You use selective facts cooked through the prism of rancid partisanship to paint President Obama as the "worst ever". Meanwhile, anyone NOT employed by FOX news and NOT a partisan like yourself can and have proven you wrong.

When you UNDERSTAND an argument from both sides you can compromise and get results. A great friend of mine says "liars figure and figures lie". That means you can take ANY piece of information and make it say whatever you want it to say. The best example of that are the last few comments from you and Beth. You're great cheerleaders for your "team",, but you play too loose and too fast with the facts to be taken seriously.

Oh yes figures can be manufactured RON. Just like the unemployment rate conveniently dropping below 8% four weeks before the election. How many people do you know who are underemployed or unemployed? My asking you if you are delusional is not childish name calling. It is an attempt to determine your state of mind. We will have to see how Obama's record plays out in history. I will give you that but I would hardly call it "rancid". Now that is childish. You have swallowed Obama's promise of working both sides of the aisle. When I find him personally the most devisive president in history without any intention of working together. For him to refuse to sit down with Netanyahu while the Middle East is in this state of flux is unacceptable. He is clueless in Foreign Policy as was first evident with his gift of an IPod for the Queen. I hardly think I am loose. I think my vote will most likely cancel yours out! Take care of yourself.

Prince, after THIS bit of "insight",, you and I are finished talking. Enjoy the day.

JMB I apologize. The only reason my daughter would agree to let us buy her a Focus was because they refused the bailout money. Frankly Ford was the only consideration for an American auto purchase. The government wants to take more control and enforce more regulations and mandates on the auto industry in order to force production of special interest cars such as the non-profitable Chevy Volt. Henry Ford would have been proud of his management. By the way Ford NEVER supported the union mentality. Thank you for your response. Please remember the Holocaust was not so long ago and the government should be kept small. Nothing can keep us safer. Why are SOOO many still trying so desperately to come to America? Because we still have the hope for realizing a personal dream...No other country offers. Like I mentioned in an earlier post Martin Luther King had a dream...Obama has a Nightmare.

If the auto companies had gone through a normal bankruptcy process, the stockholders still would have been wiped out, the dealerships would still have been put out of business and on top of those losses would have been the implosion of the auto suppliers who would have collapsed along with GM and Chrysler.

JMB - however, Ford DID benefit greatly from the Auto bailout since it helped maintain the supply chain. Without that, no question, they would not be in the healthy position they are in today. That is what Mullaly was acutely aware of, and that is why he supported it even though they didn't accept monies directly.

You got it! Wish everyone understood the truth about this. Again...GM DID GO BANKRUPT, and they still owe us (taxpayers) millions that will most likely never be repaid. Obama picking winners/losers again with our money. Just wrong!

As if someone from Alemeda California coulb be a trustworthy source of information on responsible government. Joseph Robert, how much is your union pension per year?

Gas was $1.80 a gallon because the US and world economies had collapsed and demand for gas had plummeted with it. What you're telling everyone is that you want a return to a failed US economy so you can get cheap gas? That's crazy.

JMB - huh?
Ray says "why in heaven's name would you vote for someone whose party crashed our economy in such a reckless manner"
to which you respond "the classic blame Bush line"

Excuse me, but are you actually saying that W and his administration's policies did NOT tank the economy and put us into the Great Recession during his term? Ray makes a perfectly valid argument, especially lending strength to his statement with "if you don't learn from history, you're doomed to repeat it". Indeed.

And let's not forget that even under a strong chest-thumping Republican president (GWB) with the world's strongest military, we STILL suffered the worst terrorist attack.

And Romney is trying to sell us on the thought that simply having a Republican president and more aircraft carriers are going to prevent terrorists from planning their evil plots "because they wouldn't dare to challenge us". Nice theory, but that's all it is.
Personally, I agree with top security experts, military who say the current and next wave in counter-terror will be mainly in the form of cyber, loose nukes and bio. THAT's where we should focus - NOT making 20th century war relics the Pentagon doesn't even want. Let's have a smarter military, not a deficit exploding one that will NOT make us safer.

Again "if you don't learn from history, you're doomed to repeat it"

Amen!

FHV - here's the latest Etch-a-Sketch moment - yesterday:

October 9, 2012 -"There's no legislation with regards to abortion that I'm familiar with that would become part of my agenda," Romney said in an interview with The Des Moines Register.

Later in the day [yes the SAME day], this statement was released from his campaign: "Mitt Romney is proudly pro-life, and he will be a pro-life president," Andrea Saul said in a statement.

My problem is less with the position, than the fact Romney is running not just an Etch-a-Sketch campaign, but a quiet "fix it with the base through quiet press release campaign". He will say one thing to your supporters RE: the 47% moochers and that he thinks the Isreal/Palestine peace process is a lost cause, say another to supporters in Des Moines, say something completely different to 70 million in a debate with a moderate, almost liberal message. And anything that needs fixing, just correct in a press release aimed to conservative outlets.

It may be the Marketing man inside Romney. He really will actually say anything to make the sale. It makes me sad. I still believe this is not the campaign he always envisioned running, but he's made the choice to sell out to the fringe in order to win.

Pay no attention to FHVoice. He or She is a hired thug from the Obama Campaign trolling Social Media sites trying to spread his propoganda.

When gas was $1.80 a gallon, the US economy was losing hundreds of thousands of jobs a month, the stock market had collapsed and the companies were going bankrupt left and right. If you think the economy today is worse than in 2008 and 2008, you're delusional.

The fiscal cliff is exactly what Republicans demanded. They insisted on cuts in spending and refused to extend tax cuts for the middle class unless they were accompanied by tax cuts for the highest income levels. Now they are claiming that they don't support the spending cuts and want tax cuts extended for the Mitt Romneys of the world even if it adds to the deficit. Sounds like a lot of Republican are hypocrites on this topic.

Hmm....How about that......I just ran into another Mike. Lol.

JMB - I would add that "just voting against the other guy" is what got us the disaster that was the Bush/Cheney presidency:

9/11 attacks, surplus to exploding deficits, Constitution stomping Patriot act, unchecked Executive Priviledge (which gets transferred to the next POTUS R or D), two wars paid on Chinese credit cards, oh yeah, and culminating in complete financial melt-down.

Sorry, but as much as I've liked Romney in the past, I see I see the staff he's bringing along for the ride. And it equals a Third term of George W. Bush. No thanks -

"true patriots".... Translation: Anybody that agrees with your republican point of view. Remember the rhetoric leading up to the Iraq invasion by GW Bush? Same exact thing. If you were against that foolish boondoggle, you were called unpatriotic and worse!

This type of rhetoric is simply wrong, mean spirited and ignorant of the truth. Since when did attacking someone for an opposing view become a referendum on your love of country? This is the language that is driving America into the ground. It's divisive and has no place in our lives. Stand up to it and deny it a foothold in our political discourse!

JMB,,, You do realize that GW Bush was POTUS at the time the US went to war in Afghanistan. You also realize that Bush LEFT the real fight against the 9-11 terrorists to chase his religious folly in Iraq. Iraq, the country that did NOT attack the US. The country that did NOT provide safe harbor for the 9-11 terrorists. The country that did NOT provide a base for Al Qaeda. You do know all of these things to be FACT. (Of course you won't admit it, nor do I expect you to)

Had GW Bush STAYED the course in Afghanistan,, the US could have been out of that hell hole YEARS ago, leaving it stable and able to defend itself. INSTEAD,,, the terrorists regrouped,, over 5000 fine Americans were KILLED IN IRAQ,,, over 30,0000 fine Americans were MAIMED IN IRAQ,,, and TRILLIONS of dollars,, BORROWED from CHINA were WASTED in Iraq and terrorist cells now live in the open all OVER the Middle East. All of these thing traceable back to the failed policy of GW Bush.

So please,, get off your "moral" high horse talking about what Obama "did" as it PALES by comparison to the massive blunders, missteps and FAILURE to "accomplish" the REAL "mission" post 9-11. It's hilarious you you sat on your hands while Rome burned under Bush, yet you have the gall to make Obama out to be the devil incarnate for a fraction of what our nation experienced between 2000-2008. GW Bush set the misery in motion for the world we live in today. THESE are the FACTS.

JMB - correct GWB is NOT running. However, most of his advisors and the architects of the GWB disasters ARE, as in, riding on the tailcoats of, and promised return to GWB policies with a Romney presidency.

EFFECTIVELY it would be a third term of GWB, that's all that matters.

It's like a company looking for a new CEO and saying, "Hmmm, let's hire someone who totally ruined the last company they worked for. Then ask him to bring all the worst of his team. I'm sure THIS time it will be different. Brilliant!"

What a laugh! There wouldn't be any death tolls if your Republican administration wouldn't have plunged us into those wars in the first place. Oh, but Halliburton made out alright.......You remember Halliburton......Dick Cheney's old Company?

Mike - Yes, I remember Cheney's Halliburton and the war profiteering in Iraq.
But please, don't forget another one of Halliburton's greatest hits:

They were the cement seal guys in the BP oil disaster in the Gulf!!

Beth and Kathy - I'm sorry, the Libya incident does not compare at all to the scale of the lack of accountability of the fraud and deceit that got us into, and kept us in, the illegal war in Iraq. And not only illegal, but intentionally kept OFF the books and budgets by W's budget director Mitch Daniels. The first time the wars were included in the budget was when Obama took office and he directed it be done. Hmmm, how did the defeciet jump so fast the day he got in office? There you go - 2 wars on a Chinese credit card were waiting for the next sucker to figure out how pay for it.

It is appalling and frightening that there has never been an accounting of that fiasco. Still. To this day. You should be appalled as well.

Sorry, but the current crop of Republicans (I'll qualify, on the NATIONAL stage) have ZERO credibility when it comes to foreign policy and debt. They crashed the national car last time around. And there has been no accounting for it, no apology, no "we've learned from our errors and will do better". The only promises we have from R/R is to go back to GWB in all these areas. THAT should scare you as well.

I completely agree! There is NO ACCOUNTABILITY is this administration...from his promise to get rid of lobbyists in the WH, then filling the halls with them...to the obscene and criminal handling of the Benghazi attack - and to blame somebody else - this ridiculous video... to the death of Brian Terry, only to be told by Obama that "the southern border has never been more secure..." There is NO accountability in the current administration, and as citizens, we should ALL be hopping mad and demanding answers!

FHVoice, how are you any more insightful then Beth? You are just as partisan as Beth is. Frankly I think most of what you talk about is drivel. But I have a question for you. Where is Obama’s plan? I don’t see anything out there specific about jobs, the deficit, the dept, medicare, soc sec, medicaide, gitmo. The only thing he has said publicly is that he is going to raise the taxes on anyone making over 250K. Which frankly, I don’t have a problem with. But other than that, crickets. He has had 4 years and what has he done about jobs? Nothing! His economic commission hasn’t met in 18 months. He rejected the bipartisan Simpson Commission recommendations. He spent the first 18 months of his presidency on health care, which 53% of the country doesn’t want anyway. He lied to us in Colorado when he accepted the nomination. Gitmo still open. Cut the deficit, failed, go line by line and stop wasteful spending, failed, get us home from Afghanistan, failed. Would you like me to go on. What did he do with his political capital. Hmmm, Health Care no one wants, Supported Gay Marriage. Lied to the mother of a Marine killed at the Libyan Embassy. Lied to us about what really happened in Benghazi.

"FHVoice, how are you any more insightful then Beth? You are just as partisan as Beth is." Partisan, yes, however, she lied and I didn't. That's how we differ.

"I don’t see anything out there specific about jobs" - Partisan Republicans have not voted on the President's jobs bill, unwilling to give President Obama a win on this issue.

"He has had 4 years and what has he done about jobs? Nothing! "WTF?!? When President Obama took office, we were LOSING over $750,00 jobs per month! He has cut small business taxes over 10 times. He has offered legislation to encourage job growth - legiation the GOP has fought. They'd rather see the nation go bankrupt, a la Romney's let Detroit go bankrupt.

"He rejected the bipartisan Simpson Commission recommendations." - There were no recommendations! The commission could not reach an agreement!

"Gitmo still open" - because Congress would not allow inmates to be transferred to the US.

"Get us home from Afghanistan" - in progress, after having cut the head off al-Qaida - something he accomplished in less than 4 years, after Bush - and Romney - gave up upon!

"Health Care no one wants" - Oh, since, as you say, 53% "don't want it", the other 47%, don't count?

"Lied to the mother of a Marine killed at the Libyan Embassy. " - No, he didn't, and besides, the mother asked Romney (and now, by extension, you) to not make his death a political issue.

FHVoice, all you can do is blame everyone else for Obama's complete lack of leadership. You are intellectually devoid of any ability to see beyond your own hatred and partisanship. And the funny thing is your partisanship is only superseded by your ignorance. You said “"He rejected the bipartisan Simpson Commission recommendations." - There were no recommendations! The commission could not reach an agreement!” Here are 5.
1. $200 billion reduction per year in discretionary spending[14] with proposed cuts including reducing defense procurement by 15% and closing one third of overseas bases, eliminating earmarks, and cutting the federal work force by 10%.
2. $100 billion in increased tax revenues through various tax reform proposals,[14] such as introducing a 15 cent per gallon gasoline tax and eliminating or restricting a variety of tax deductions such as the home mortgage interest deduction and the deduction for employer-provided healthcare benefits.
3. Controlling health care costs by maintaining the Medicare cost controls associated with the recent health care reform legislation,[14] in addition to considering a public option and a further increase in the authority of Independent Payment Advisory Board.
4. A reduction in entitlements, including farm subsidies, civilian and military federal pensions and student loan subsidies.[14][15]
5. Modifications to the Social Security program to raise the payroll tax and the retirement age.[14]

Here is the link to the Washington Post, a newspaper that certainly you support, discussing Pat Smith's comments about her son's death.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/wp/2012/10/11/mother-of-slain-official-demands-answers-from-obama-administration/

As for politicizing the deaths in Libya, how dare you suggest that the lives lost in our military are so trivial that we should not call out any government official who blatantly lies to the American public and the families about how they died. I don’t care whether it is dem or rep, Congressman, Senator or President. you don’t lie to us.

"You won't hear an explanation for the the 1 trillion wasted on not so shovel ready jobs."

This is completely false. 1/3 of the stimulus was for tax cuts. Republicans must hate tax cuts when Democrats are the ones cutting taxes. Many infrastructure projects were shovel ready and were completed on time, boosting construction employment and local economies. Many of those projects were right here in southeast Michigan.

Thanks JMB. You hit it outta the ball park.

…
Yes, the stakes are high. Don't be fooled.

For example, Romney wants to add $2 TRILLION in new military spending as well as keep fighting in Afghanistan forever. Of course you know that after GW Bush led us into a disastrous war under the false flag of WMD, Romney picked Bush's advisors as his own, right?

Can we afford another four years of Bushism, with its wild militarism and trickle down economics that even Reagan's Director of OMB has called a sham? NO!

Obama/Biden 2012

FHV, Lies Lies Lies. You and BO have no record to run on, you f'd it up and so you tell lie after lie after lie. Now your leader Stephanie Cutter is blaming R and R for Libya. I mean come on how pathetic can you be.

…
" Disrespecting Netanyahu" - Netanyahu made it clear he wasn't disrespected: "You know, I'm always pleased and -- and happy to have a conversation with President Obama.  He's -- I think he's met me more than any other leader in the world and I -- I appreciate that.  We've had our discussions.  Our-- our schedules on this visit didn't work out.  I come to New York and he leaves New York.  But we continue in close consultations.  We have urgent business, Israel and America, to prevent Iran from getting nuclear weapons." And remember, Netanyahu is a former business partner of Romney, and the Israeli Prime Minister has inserted himself in our American election. This is not healthy for either country.

"they are losing the swing voters because intelligent people would rather go for the unknown" As Romney & Ryan are exposed, they are no longer "unknown", but reveal the damage they would wrought over women's rights, labor rights, economic justice, and the SCOTUS. R&R want to run a stealth campaign, but when people waken to their agenda (which is why they try to hide it), they reject it.

And btw, any of my cut and paste of the truth trumps your GOP talking point strung out without a hint of punctuation or thought. Your ODS is kicking up again.

A third GW Bush administration? NO! Obama/Biden 2012